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What I think is important is also to reserve some space, at least for cooperation around the things that are going to be absolutely necessary for us to cooperate upon, climate change, the global pandemic, stabilizing the world economy, these are areas where there's no way we're going to have a solution without China. And we need at least to keep the lines of communicationand engagement sufficient that we can have a genuine dialogue upon these questions. And I think it's going to require an what I would call strategy onboth sides, and by strategy, I’m a great believer in political strategy, which means not a series of reactions to events, but a framework within which you can govern the relationship in a stable manner, accepting that there are going tobe real areas of confrontation and competition.

But as I say, making it clear of persuading also public that it is necessary to have areas of cooperation，right.

金刻羽：Now, I'm a believer that both sides need strategic empathy, the ability to see from theother side's perspective, and that is lacking. on the lack of leadership, we've kind of seen that even before the pandemic, in places like Europe, one of the central Western challenges is this estrangement between the ruling elites and the broader public. And that disconnection isbecoming ever more apparent, whether it's manifested through income inequality, but also fairness of opportunity, and also political persuasions and attitudes about globalization, or about technology. So it seems like there's nothing they can agree about. The division is so big, there's nothing they can agree about, exceptto have a common competitor outside and a common rival, which also has become abipartisan theme, that is a central problem.

BLAIR：And that's  what gets populist leaders elected, the popular agenda, that is somehow driving also, of course, importantly, shaping domestic politics, also foreign policy,causing, to some degree, this lack of global coordination. If they can't agree about the benefits about globalization, global coordination among the leaders, that will be a big problem. And that just seems to me like afundamental root cause. So Western societies are very divided at the moment. And they're divided in a way that's both economic and cultural. And the economic is very obvious, because a proportion of the population has not seen the economic benefits that it used to perceive, each generation will always do better in terms of living standards than the last.

So that generational promise, if you like, it's been somewhat ruptured. But secondly, there's a deep cultural divide, and a generational divide. And that services, particularly around issues like immigration, and then also around cultural questions of race, inequality, and so on. And the combination of all these things, of an older generation often feeling they've lost control over changes happening in their lives. And an issue, certainly in the US, of stagnating incomes, the combination has been to produce anger directed that the system and the system has not been very good at adjusting tothis. The trouble is, what populists do,because there's nothing wrong with being popular, by the way, there's a difference between being popular and being apopulist.But I define populism essentially, as riding the anger, rather than providing the answer.In other words, what the populist does, is it takes something like immigration and exploits the issue rather than deals with the issue. So thequestion is, can we recover? Can we get our mojo back in western politics, andit might be critical to that is to reignite a sense of optimism.

Basically, countries become angry when the people are pessimistic. And the problem is fascinating to me, when I'm working in some of the poorest countries of the world, I find more optimism about the future than I do in my own.when we have a standard of living way, way above those poorer countries? what is missing from Western politics is leadership that can explain to people that the challenges we're going to face through globalization,which is, by the way, driven by people, and they're not by governments, it's driven by people, that we can overcome the challenges of globalization, the changes intechnology, and we can harness them for the public good. And in doing so we can revive that generational promise.

That's what's missing from Western politics. And until you get back to a sense of optimism that we can make the future work for us. It's very difficult. And part of making that future work for us is to say, yes, you know,the West is not going to dominate the world any more. And there is going to berising power in the east, it's risen. Okay, China, India in time, and Indonesia, you know, Vietnam, Philippines, these are significant population, these countries are going to be powerful countries in the future, we've got to be,we've got to also find a way of being comfortable with that and thinking,there's opportunities that come with it, not just the loss of place.

So these are big challenges, and they require infarsighted leadership that is prepared to say things, you know, I will say the test of the leader is not when they tell you what you want to hear, any fool can do that and become popular.The test of the leader is how they tell you the difficult things that need to be done for the long term of the country.

金刻羽：And the sooner there is leadership back in the West, the sooner thatthe leadership takes care of its people, and addresses some of the fundamental issues within their societies, the better it is also for foreign policy and global coordination. That's that's what I believe in. But on that China's risehas been, in our view, a great opportunity for the world. But there have been misgivings about its rise by both sides. And it's very important to dispel these misgivings, So what advice would you give a rising nation, keen to be engaging in the global arena, about how to better communicate about itself, and its trajectory, and to engage with the world?

BLAIR：You've got to distinguish between two different sentiments in the West. One sentiment is, you know, all the theories about when there's a new power, the old powers get worried, and then there's a potential for conflict. And you know, that historically, that is true, but the degree of interaction of China with the world today, even with all this talk of decoupling, the interaction is so enormous. Then I think Western sentiment is not, at least I believe the majority Western sentiment, is not hostile, to the recognition that China's power is a fact, that’s a justified fact, China's gotto decide what it is going to be saying to the West. is it going to look for ways of engagement, recognize the West concerns, some of them may derive from an anxiety about the Chinese power, it's important. This is why dialogue is important, it's important to have a frank dialogue. It's also important that we keep cultural exchange between people. And I am, you know, an opponent of the notion of decoupling, I think it's a very dangerous thing for us to do.

The best way is to find ways that we can engage in a respectful dialogue. Yes, that's my ambition. it takes Western politicians with strategic thinking for the course it requires strategic thinking on the part of the Chinese leadership. So we should talk more and do more together? I think yes, you can take an issue like climate change, and really work together on what is the solution to climate change. It's the science and technology that allows us to consume sustainably about climate change, okay.

What China does is important, what America does is important, what Europe does is important. But here's the thing, the population of Africa will double in the next 30 years, that population wants development, they want to consume. Now, we can't say to those, that young African population, I'm sorry, you can't consume, this is going to cause a problem in supply. we’ve got to show how we can consume sustainably. And that's, that's a challenge of innovation and invention. China working with the West on that will be a fantastic thing.

金刻羽：And I think China's very much ready and prepared and already playing an important global role on climate change, on potential fight against terrorism, on being an anchor in the financial system, And just this time, during COVID is acted recently as lender of last supply, being the supplier when the supply chains and production capacities have broken down. So Tony, what do you see as the future of UK-China relations and China’s relationship with Europe?

BLAIR：I think that Europe could play an important role in ensuring that, what I call that strategic framework, and how do we engage Chinais, constructed on behalf of the West. And I think the UK is wiping out that the European Union structure. The UK is very much within that European strain of thinking, if you like. And that doesn't mean to say that the Europeans will want in any way to weaken the strength of their alliance with the US, particularly around security questions.

But the the Europeans will, I think, want to see that we have got away of advancing the relationship with China that doesn't go towards what people, I think, in a very glib way to call, sort of Cold War sentiment. I think Europe can play a part in shaping a more productive dialogue. And I hope so. And I think it's important that UK also plays its part in that. And because otherwise, frankly, the most important bilateral relationship between of the 21st century, which is US and China, is going to take its course without any European influence. And I think it's in the interest of Europe to be part of that dialogue, very important that it is, infact.